Gay icon Dennis Altman attacks marriage equality movement
Gay academic, activist and icon Dennis Altman launched a scathing attack against the marriage equality movement at a public event in Melbourne last week, arguing it takes focus away from more important issues and further marginalises LGBTI people not in long term relationships.
Discussing his recent book The End of the Homosexual? at the Victorian Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby AGM with Lobby co-convener Anna Brown, Altman expressed frustration at marriage equality being framed as a ‘human rights issue’. He described hearing a radio interview with a woman in Canberra waiting to get married:
鈥淭o be honest what came through was the most appalling, smug self-satisfaction. ‘I’m in this fabulous relationship, everybody loves us and we want to get married and it’s a basic issue of human rights.’ And I thought well fuck off. It’s not,鈥� Altman said.
鈥淧eople being killed in Uganda, people being raped in South Africa because people assume they’re lesbian, men being lured into parks and bashed up in Russia, those are basic human rights [issues]. In Australia if you are in a long-term relationship…you actually have pretty well all those rights.鈥�
Altman acknowledged the symbolic value of marriage, but said losing his long term partner a year ago has sadly highlighted the ways the movement excludes single people.
鈥淸What] most worries me is the message it sends to other people: you are a failure if you are not in a long-term relationship. You are a failure. It’s exactly the message young women have had to fight against for a long time,鈥� he said.
鈥淥ne of the strengths of the lesbian and gay world was that it had room for a variety of relationships and it had room for people who weren’t couples.鈥�
Altman criticised what he saw as a failure of the LGBTI press to provide a forum for rigorous and intelligent debate on community issues.
鈥淚 think there is a sort of anti-intellectualism reflected in some of the gay press, I see reflected in Joy FM. If they’re here I hope they don’t take it personally but I also hope they take it on board, because my sense is they are not interested in ideas,鈥� Altman argued.
鈥淚t’s finding that way of broadening the discourse and getting beyond the idea that everything will be solved the day two women in matching white tuxedos can walk down the aisle together and get married.鈥�
Altman argued passionately for more political advocacy around the power of fundamentalist religion in society, particularly in schools, and around the violent persecution of LGBTI people throughout the world.
鈥淲hat you can do effectively is often not what you do in public,鈥� he said, discussing Foreign Minister Julie Bishop’s visit to Indonesia for the Bali Democracy Forum.
鈥淭he worst thing she could do is get there and start telling the Malaysians and the Singaporeans they should repeal their laws… One of the things we have to do is build alliances with groups in other parts of the world and listen to what they think we can most usefully do.
鈥淎nd I think the current issue now is, who do we talk to in Russia to get a real sense of what is the right approach to the Sochi Olympics. We can feel good saying let’s boycott it, but we don’t live there. We’re not going to get bashed and beaten up because of what westerners say, and we have to do this with a lot of humility.鈥�
Tim Wilson
Enough said
Thanks Dennis for stating the obvious about shallowness and stupidity
Dean Beck is the only decent current affairs I like and at times he’s a little unbearable as well
Switch over to 3CR with Sally Goldner
I’m in my early 20s and reading Altman’s books for the first time. When he wrote and published his first book on the gay liberation movement in America, it was a momentous achievement. Every subsequent work that I’ve gone through had been as insightful, brilliant and intellectually invigorating as the first. I think people of my generation have very little knowledge about the political endeavours and achievements of older generations. Dismissing his arguments as those of an ‘old fogey’ and belittling his status as an ‘icon’ (as some have in their comments) strikes me as immensely arrogant. You have no idea what you’re talking about (re Altman’s contribution) if you don’t know what it was like for lgbti individuals only a few decades ago and how people like Altman helped shape what we now have politically. Don’t a smug, self-important arse. Educate yourself.
*has
If this is the same Dennis Altman who wrote “Homosexual: Oppression and Liberation”, which I read shortly after coming out in 1974, I have to wonder whether Alzheimer’s is starting to take its toll on him. I would agree that we need to make progress in many directions, of which marriage equality is only one, but arguing against making progress on marriage equality, because it is not making progress in some other direction, is just stupid.
The day Gay Men stop hanging around public toilets looking for sex or sitting in a cubicle watching a Man/Boy take a pee through a peep hole, I would consider accepting of Gay People but until this CRIMINAL Behaviour stops, I want nothing to do with Homosexuals #makesmesick
every step in the right direction is a good step. things aren’t gonna all change overnight but this is a step toward marriage equality for all. every step towards equality only bolsters a society, it doesn’t harm it. some of you should wake up and stop expecting instant results. complaining about every step forward certainly doesn’t help us.
Legalizing gay marriage doesn’t make it either compulsory or desirable. It would, however, address rights of inheritance for surviving partners.
Shock. Horror. Somebody dared express a different opinion on marriage?
A lot of the comments here demonstrate the very thing Dennis is talking about: an inability to think outside the issue. And such self-importance. Where was this media obsession with marriage and you cheer-leaders back in 2004? Remember? That’s when the Marriage Act was amended. All this public indignation is about ten years too late. Or maybe John Howard’s tactics were ten years ahead of yours.
It seems marriage wasn’t an issue until the government exempted us from it. Hence most of you just look and sound childish.
Dennis is entitled to his view but he’s missed the mark. Marriage equality isn’t being argued and debated and fought for at the exclusion of all other issues. But it obviously does resonate with a large number of people both inside and outside the LGBTI community. If he looked he would find that a large portion of activists are not arguing because they themselves plan to marry. They are arguing for the choice to marry, to exercise their civil right if and when they choose to. And to not be denied recognition and the civil benefits of this or any other government.
I am not for gay marriage. It does not interest me in the slightest. Being single and not married doesn’t make me feel like a failure (actually being one of the few people with a facepic and clothes on in my gaydar and grindr profiles does). However, that’s just me. I believe if others want the right to marry and have that equality then it must exist. So I will support any campaigns for that reason. Just because it is not for me, fine but I will back it to the hill to ensure the rights of other LGBTI exist.
Whilst I am totally in support of Marriage Equality and regard it as a Human Rights and Discrimination issue, I must agree with Dennis Altman – this is NOT the most important LGBT issue facing our community today!! Many in the community throughout the World are still facing death, imprisonment and torture and in comparison the constant and unrelenting coverage, particularly in the Australian media, pales by comparison.
I agree Separate is not Equal but death and the loss of liberty are far more important issues still facing our community throughout the World.
I couldn’t agree more joe.. I don’t see marriage as a right. I see we have rights to safety and security. I also think that while we’re so busy fighting for marriage there have been some fairly significant social issues left behind . At the moment teachers counsellors, nurses etc who work for religious charities cannot even mention the names of their same sex significant others without having the fear that they will loose their job. Are we so blind that we can’t see this as an issue? yet little is being done about.
All the while millions has been spent on the marriage debate over the past 20 years and tens of thousands of precious hours have been invested into a cause that not everyone in the gay/lesbian community wants鈥�.
De facto couples who want civil unions have been howled down, denied and relationship recognition hijacked by the ‘marriage’ extremists! Laugh at the juniors who campaign for ‘Divorce Equality’ who are lucky to have had a one night-stand yet alone a ‘REAL’ long term relationship! The Labor/Greens have played right into the conservatives and religious extremists’ hands and they are laughing all the way to no foreseeable changes of any kind for same-sex relationship recognition in this country. Denying civil unions to heterosexual couples is ALSO discriminatory. Give me a civil union certificate at a registry office any day, then all that wedding crap!
Anything to sell a book, Dennis?
It is a shame that Dennis gets the stage and drags down Equality of Marriage to raise International Human Rights as an issues. As Nathan and Bill point out there is more to be achieved than just marriage equality. The message is much broader, gives hope and shines a light to those seeking broader rights of equality everywhere. Cathil, we are not going to get it all right but lets keep chipping away at it. Dennis ‘almost’ is not near enough but true we can ensure all the missing elements that marriage does not afford us in our committed relationships. There is a ‘but’. Legally it costs you a bomb to do it. It has just cost my partner and I close to $10K to ensure the security of our properties using lawyers. Lets not see marriage as the restrictive religious model, monogamy is a construct. Dan Savage gets close. To paraphrase, we all have the right to get married, how we conduct ourselves after that is up to the two people involved. Joseph, its our choice if we want to ‘fuck like rabbits’ though I like to be a little more sophisticated and having the freedom takes out a lot of the pressure of being in a ‘committed’ relationship. The other impact I hope for is that the spin off from this will be a greater acceptance for my rural and remote QGLBTI brothers and sisters ship and ‘all all those who sail in her’. [I live for the death of that acronym] While being ‘out’ in the bush is improving, being a ‘poofter’ can still be highly stigmatised. While youth suicide in general has fallen it is still statistically higher with a greater prevalence in rural and remote areas. We don’t know all the causes and are multifactorial but being ‘different’ in the bush has to be a contributor. Equality in all its forms and the way it is recognised on broader platforms has a positive impact, increases individual well being and most importantly raises hope. Marriage should be a choice and until recently I was bitter twisted and single. Its what equality to marriage says about broader equality is more important don’t you think?
Apology. I need to correct an error. Should read ‘over $1K’ not ‘$10K’ but it does get expensive, time consuming and frustrating.
I agree with the anti intellectual cirque of our media. I concede that the commercial press is what it is, but JOY, as a community outlet, needs to develop a culture that can attract better standards. More smart informed presenters and less egotistical “Alan Partridges”. The uninformed discussion and interviews on many of it’s current affairs shows is just pure cringe-worthy. So I congratulate Altman on bringing this issue to light in more polite terms then I have.
Reason speaks. Thank you Denis. Single people and widowed people should not be invisible.
I totally agree with Dennis Altman and his comment about the smugness of people (gay and straight) who are in long-standing committed relationships — supposedly.
I remember my sister-in-law saying to me (after a few too many drinks), “you really have missed out, haven’t you” (poor dear).
Alas she, on the other hand can’t do a bloody thing without my brother!!
And what its it with people who constantly refer to their “other half”?
Are they incomplete being single?
It became clear with聽 the passing of聽 the so called “marriage equality” act in the ACT that equality wasn’t for everyone. To deliberately exclude trans and intersex people demonstrated how little people like Rodney Croome actually care for the rest of the acronym and only care about “the gay white man”. Most of the comments here are proof of the anti-intellectualism of which Altman talks about, and once again reinforce that equality is only for the BIG G&L and not the ‘btiq’
I must disagree with Dennis. I think it is important tha we have equal rights. I do agree that as a nation ( not just the queer community) we are generally apathetic and slow to take any real action when it is needed.
There are legal benefits that flow on from marriage. Probate being the best example. Even so, many are confusing marriage equality (as a civil right) with it being a human right which it is not and that applies to both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Given some of the comments above, it is also clear that what Dennis Altman maintains is true – it is marginalizing many gay men and lesbians including those who disagree with them and who are being denied the right to express their views. We are living in an age of homonormativity which is as bad as heteronormativity. With marriage comes monogamy whether we like it or not (and, no doubt, divorces) and some of those couples fighting for marriage (and I know a few) fuck around like rabbits. Marriage equality would have been far more credible if it went about defending all forms of gay relationships. And being equal with straights is not always a good thing. Ask any lawyer.
Excellent. The indifference we have to our LGBT brothers and sisters being SLAUGHTERED, and that is the only way to describe it, overseas is appalling. We can organise march upon march for marriage equality, but where is the picketing of embassies? The apathy the gay community shows to political issues is the one thing I dislike about my beautiful country; watching movies like “Milk” makes me want to live in the US where they get off their arses and do something to make a difference.
Hear … hear, Lloyd ^0^
Lets get one thing straight – Dennis Altman is no gay icon.
He thinks he is an intellectual, but arguing against marriage equality lobbyists because it excludes and marginalises singles has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have read. This is from the same man who says he doesn’t need legal recognition for his relationship from the State, yet feels like a failure because he is now single and is being left behind with the focus on marriage equality. OH MY get a grip.
There are many important world LGBTI causes for us all to be involved in. That is not in dispute. Some people in Australia have decided to push for the right for all gay and lesbian Australians to make the choice whether to get married or not. I note many of these same lobbyists are passionate about global lgbti human right abuses.
If you dont care for marriage equality, dont get involved. If you feel passionate about Russia’s gay propaganda laws or whats happening in Uganda, then start up a movement and engage with the community.
I have had contact with many gay men in Russia and the Middle East and they say to me that seeing progress in human rights like Marriage equality gives them hope for the future. What we do here for marriage is hugely symbolically important nationally and internationally.
Rather than promote your book and criticise others, why dont you try and be part of the solution and get involved.
I couldn’t agree more with Nathan. It shows narrow mindedness from Dennis Altman. Every kind of discrimination is a violation of Human Rights. The choice to get married or not is a principle one to be made by individuals. Just because some people in the gay community might prefer other kind of relationships doesn’t mean those who want to get married should not get the right to do so.
Besides, not only many gays live a single life in some kind of form, ever looked about the divorce statistic rising as well as the age of the first marriage by people?
I don’t think what Dennis Altman is saying is that he is opposed to gay marriage, but aligning yourself with people whose human rights are actually abused. When in actual fact your being driven by self interest and this need to be a member of the ‘mainstream’, is actually seen as a betrayal by those of us that have lived on the margins of society all our lives. Your group are usually educated members of society, whose responsibility for a more just and equitable society should be motivated not by self interest and having the state recognise your relationships by way of marriage but using your collective energy to fight against inequity. I don’t particularly care whether the state approves of my marriage and I think it doesn’t effect the authenticity of my partner and my relationship.
I am inclined to agree. While I believe that all Australians should be treated equally I think the pro marriage campaign has so focused the minds of Australians that many straight Australians could be excused for thinking that marriage is the only issue affecting GLBTIQ Australians and when that is done all will be great. There are still many issues of discrimination and violence that confront many GLBTI Australians on a daily basis and ‘marriage’ is not going to fix that. The almost daily depiction of Transgender people on popular media as legitimate subjects of ridicule is an example of how much work still needs to be done that has nothing to do with marriage.
His argument is a non-sequitur. Even if marriage were only symbolic, there is a cascade effect that leads to less oppression. I was married in Canada and dealt with dozens of clerks and officials from working class, religious, ethnic, conservative areas. Not a single person raised an eyebrow. Gay marriage is so common-place that you simply don’t feel like an outsider. Yet in Australia even many of our gay friends cringe and say “eeww, it seems weird. We could never do that” – and then there are jerks like Altman who delude themselves into imagining they are taking a thoughtful critical stance when, in reality, they are just old fogey’s who still don’t get it.
I’m really sorry that Dennis feels this way, but he needs to realise that marriage equality isn’t the problem here- ‘cocooning’ and introspection over one’s own national LGBT legislative agenda at the cost of broader LGBT international solidarity is, and they’re independent of one’s perceptions about marriage equality. Over here in New Zealand, we support both marriage equality and LGBT international solidarity- as indeed, I suspect, do most LGBT Aussies.
People like Dennis Altman is part of the problem here in Australia. Gays against gays. Should we get rid of straight marriage because a lot of single straight people feel left outside? Should black people here ask for anything because black kids in Africa starve to death?
I lost my partner 5 years ago and that does not make me feel that I am a failure. Maybe Mr. Altman should work with his problems in another way.
Like I said I’m not in a relationship, I do not want to get married if I was, but gay marriage is still a basic human rights issue. So Mr. Altman, you can fuck off!
They seem to think it an Either Or arguement. It isn’t. For Dennis to say this this says to me “I don’t want it and I don’t want them to have it either”. It’s as bad as the UBER religious Tony Abbott saying “I don’t want this because against god’s law”. Neither is relevant to our argument. Could it be Dennis can’t hold down a relationship and is bitter and twisted? I’m with the other readers who said FUCK OFF DENNIS!
Gays against gays is indeed a huge problem but for a different reason to what you propose. The gay community can be ferociously discriminatory especially when it comes to disability, race and social class. I’ve personally experienced more discrimination from the gay community than I have from society, and know many in the same category. It’d be nice to see the community try and address some of these issues rather than stand up for upper middle class white privilege in the form of gay marriage.