Comments on: Equal rights at last /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902 Setting Australia’s LGBTI agenda since 1979 Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:18:40 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 By: Peter /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902/comment-page-2#comment-9654 Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:18:40 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9654 Please explain rationally exactly how one does survive “below the poverty line”? I don’t think the thousands of impoverished Sydney hiv patients can survive on mean Crown Street soup kitchen regimes! Perhaps the truth is that governments perpetuate the poverty syndrome because there is a high chance of dependents not surviving, thus no longer being welfare recipients.

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By: shayne chester /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902/comment-page-2#comment-9585 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:07:43 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9585 “The question taht you have not answered Shayne is how a same-sex couple will be disadvanteged under the new laws?”:

Well first, it’s not my JOB to be answering these questions, I am not the one paid ten million dollars a year to advocate on behalf of those who will be disadvantaged.

However, an estimated 16,692 people were living with HIV in Australia at the end of 2007. Centrelink claims 11,000 people in same-sex relationships will be disadvantaged by these ‘reforms’, the majority of whom are HIV+ gay men. NAPWA has made a submission to the review panel for urgent action to be taken on the rate of pensions and concession entitlements as they affect people with HIV using data from the HIV Futures 5 survey of HIV-positive people in Australia which reveals that, of those on a government benefit, 58% are living below the recognised Henderson Poverty lines. The costs of living with a chronic illness are significant, with extra costs for pharmaceuticals (including some non-PBS items), complementary medicines, dietary supplements and services like counselling, etc., etc.

Maree O’Halloran from the National Welfare Rights network says, “We’re asking Centrelink to pay special consideration to the very vulnerable people.”

Michael Raper, President on the National Welfare Rights Network said, -œThe fundamental problem is that Centrelink is not looking closely enough at all the factors that indicate that no relationship exists. It makes judgements based on moral, not legal, grounds and often makes decisions based on flimsy information and prejudicial attitudes. We are representing a record number of clients in appeals against decisions to cancel or reduce their payments because of an alleged marriage-like relationship…The increased number of cases involving older people and carers who share rent and provide companionship and support, is extremely alarming. Add the HIV+ to the ‘older people and carers’ Rob and you might begin to see the real cost in human terms of what you call “a loop-hole.”

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By: Rob /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902/comment-page-2#comment-9578 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:23:47 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9578 The question taht you have not answered Shayne is how a same-sex couple will be disadvanteged under the new laws?

Under the ‘old’ laws, same-sex couples gained a benefit that was not available to heterosexual couples – that is, same-sex couples could receive benefits as if they were both single because their relationship was not recognised. This ‘loop hole’ has now been closed, and a same-sex couple will be treated equally as a heterosexual couple in terms of calculating benefits.

If you consider losing access to a legal loop-hole that allowed same-sex couples an unfair financial advantage over a hetero-couple, then perhaps your priorities are wrong.

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By: David /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902/comment-page-2#comment-9568 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:39:54 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9568 Other countries allow equal marriage & it will only be a matter of time before we do too. Civil unions are now outdated, & since we’ve held out so long we can totally bypass that phase. A number of countries that did take up the now outdated civil union option are now implementing equal marriage & converting existing civil unions into marriages.
It’s all about reforming marriage itself & making it more inclusive & equal (just like marriage was reformed to allow blacks to marry).

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By: shayne chester /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902/comment-page-2#comment-9566 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:44:09 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9566 Well, I think I have just about exhausted my argument (and myself) here.
Those who will be disadvantaged should never have been forced to be considered under the highly inappropriate umbrella of ‘married,’and should have the right to declare that they do not consider their relationship in that way.
But that is not an option available to them. The ‘equality/marriage’ lobby seems intolerant of the rights of those who choose NOT to be ‘married.’
The simple answer to “Why should same-sex couples be singled out for special treatment,” is that THEY never asked to be ‘married’ they were quite happy without the need for their relationships to be considered in heterosexist terms, and now a large silent section of the gay community will be subjected to Centrelink investigation ()lose their sole means of support based on moral grounds, flimsy information and prejudicial attitudes, or be forced to repay to Centrelink that which they believed they were entitled to, or undergo arduous appeals procedures without effective advocacy, or commit fraud in order to survive.
Mazel Tov.

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By: Rob /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9560 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:12:37 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9560 I’m with Trevor on this one.

Why should same-sex couples be singled out for ‘special’ treatement just because of their sexuality? If the need for addiitonal financial support is for medical, mental health or disabilities then they should be funded on that basis – the same as heterosexuals.

What is the basis for seeking equality if the moment you achieve it (or at least some semblance of it) you turn around and claim that you want to be treated differently because you are special?

Just because you are homosexual should not entitle you to special treatment.

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By: Trevor /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9546 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:19:51 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9546 To clarify last comment:

I don’t mean to say that there aren’t a range of different kinds of relationships. And the law looks at a whole lot of factors. But at the end of the day, you have to either have to come down on the side of saying “yes we’re a couple” or “no we’re not”.

To me, it’s highly disingenuous to try being on a different side of that line depending on whether it suits you or not. Is this only for legal purposes? Or do you want to do this socially as well – you’ve got a partner who you acknowledge sometimes when you want to, and don’t when you want to be single? How does the partner feel?

I don’t see how this has anything remotely to do with traditional masculinity or feminity, or indeed anything to do with marriage. Nor does it have anything to do with all the myriad examples of where homosexuals DO get treated differently and need help because of it.

You’ve completely misread what I’m saying a number of times and jumped to conclusions about what I think on all sorts of issues that you’re throwing in. Yes, gays are still discriminated against. Yes, gays have particular needs and differences. I agree with all of that.

But, you still, despite spilling a lot of ink here, haven’t said anything that convinces me the appropriate solution is to throw extra money at people with a nod and a wink that says “yes, we know you’re not really single”.

If people have extra needs because of HIV, link the assistance to HIV. If people are persecuted, do things that bring an end to homophobia. If people have mental health needs, put money into mental health. If the disability pension is too low for a couple to live on, raise the disability pension.

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By: Trevor /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9544 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:58:55 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9544 shayne,

The new laws amend the Acts Interpretation Act.

As to the rest of what you’ve written… I’m sorry, you’ve completely lost me. Two people are either a couple or they’re not.

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By: James /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9543 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:53:26 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9543 shane chester – while I don’t agree with everything that you have written, I appreciate your intelligent, well structured contribution. Good stuff.

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By: shayne chester /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9541 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:58:11 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9541 There was no ‘battle to be fought’ Trevor, until this popularist, conservative, simplistic and misguided drive for law reform agenda which ignored the cost to many, despite warnings to that effect. The aim of legal status transformation should have been to ensure liberation for everyone. It might have properly involved a fundamental renegotiation of the terms in the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 of ‘relationships’, as I said above. Mere equalisation of the law perpetuates an institutionalised discrimination against and a marked separatism toward same sex welfare recipients.

You forget that an awful lot of glbqti’s DON’T WANT to be married. They have argued for a queer politic that celebrates DIFFERENCE and sees the ‘gay marriage’ in all it’s intellectually vacuous versions imported uncritically from the United States, as assimilation and accord with a heterosexual hegemony. But now they have no choice, like it or not, now they have to fight to be ‘unmarried’ – a hopeless task. Then there are disadvantaged couples that need to share accommodation for all sorts of reasons and support, who will also be up the creek.

The ‘gay marriage’ camp hijacked the campaign for our human rights when surely our existence as human beings should have been enough to entitle us to human rights. The argument that homosexuals are ‘just the same’ as heterosexuals is profoundly dishonest because there are differences between straights and queers. While some lesbians and gay men mindlessly ape heterosexual values, queer relationships, aesthetics, and lifestyles are unique, we transgress the boundaries of traditional masculinity and femininity. The right to be different is also a fundamental human right. I believe we should have transcended heterosexual mores, we don’t need a marriage certificate to validate ourselves or our partnerships.

In an intrinsically homophobic culture where an Olympic record breaker can’t get one dollar of sponsorship because he’s out, and our media doesn’t carry one out role model because that would end their career, and gay men still get their head kicked in just for holding their partner’s hand in public…I think this “why should gays get any special treatment’ attitude is really pretty piss poor.

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By: Oliver /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9538 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:50:48 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9538 I couldnt agree with you more Trevor, with your above comment!!

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By: Trevor /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9537 Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:13:28 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9537 shayne…

you’re really not listening to me, are you?

Take the hint that I’ve given several times, and fight the right battle.

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By: shayne chester /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9532 Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:45:43 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9532 Trevor, it always amazes me that those that are secure and comfortable begrudge the measly allowance that those forced to live on welfare receive; that those sitting at the banquet table are fussed about the few scraps the starving might receive; that so many gay men could even ask, ‘why should gays get any advantage?’.

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By: Peter /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9507 Sun, 30 Nov 2008 03:44:55 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9507 Will Centrelink detect the fakes who live separately but are financially supported by well-off partners, eg; real-life case of disability claimant living in jointly owned house and driving fully paid-for up2date vehicle bought by lomg-term partner plus tens of thousands extra cash per year, who pops in now and then?? Or, will Centrelink be crushing down on the desparate hiv partners just co-habiting to try and survive?

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By: Jo /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9496 Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:49:50 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9496 sorry try this link instead for DSS guidelines to staff on determining a marriage like relationship.

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By: Jo /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9495 Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:47:27 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9495 shayne I cannot express my gratitude to you for pointing out that affirmative action is a notion that has so long been used and so readily employed in so many areas of life and social policy, but when it comes to gays we are accused of wanting ‘special treatment’. Give me a break, oh hi have some shock treatment, lobotomy, persecution, blackmail, bribery, a life in hiding and discrimination…..wait until you are 70 and then feel happy that now it’s time to be ‘married like’ – the most sexist, patriarchial archaic notion there is. Any social policy researcher worth their salt knows that is an old heterosexist way of looking at relationships and social safety nets.
All pensioners are suffering, anyone who pretends otherwise lives under a rock.
We should have brought everyone for the ride on the big wave of change, instead we left a mass of people floundering in deep water. Now we look back and say ‘you want what!’. Shameful.

look at that link to see how to be ‘marriage like’ or not and note it is up to ONE centrelink officer to judge.
Note the bit on sexual relationship.
The Senior newspaper is printing two items on this and want photos of older gays who give a stuff – any takers?

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By: michael arends /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9485 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:54:36 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9485 this is an unfair trade off,what have we really gained, a half hearted and begruding recognition of our relationships but not a legal entiltlement to the equivilant recognition of marriage,the federal government under the guise of equality is able to condem even more of the disadvantage in society to the povety trap,I work 46 hours a week to support myself and my lover of 21 years,I have have had Hiv for most of my adult life,my lover who is hiv negative has a severe form of motor neuron disease and is on the disabilirty pension ,the net result of your so called equality is that our lives will become even more difficult finacially as will those of other people with health problems,your bloody ideological driven crap has just made life for the most vulnerable a whole lot harder

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By: Trevor /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9471 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:30:07 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9471 shayne,

No, I wouldn’t say any such thing. But you have to consider carefully what the disadvantage is, and how you are addressing it.

I have no problem with a subsidy available to HIV sufferers, if it’s given to them because the cost of HIV treatment puts them in a worse financial situation.

I would, however, have a serious problem with a benefit given to homosexual HIV patients that is not given to heterosexual HIV patients. Unless you can show that being homosexual, in and of itself, somehow puts people at a financial disadvantage compared to a heterosexual person in the same situation, then I don’t see how sexuality is a good basis for positive discrimination in this context.

Positive discrimination is a tool for achieving real equality when formal equality doesn’t do the job. You have yet to say anything that persuades me that the extra benefits a homosexual person gets in some situations by being regarded as single, when they’re not in fact, are somehow compensating them for an additional need they have over and above a heterosexual person. How is the homosexual cost of living any higher than the heterosexual cost?

If homosexual couples are worried about how to cope with their loss of benefits, they really should get together with heterosexual couples in similar situations who already face living on the lower rate and find out how they cope. If the answer is that the heterosexual couples struggle and live below the poverty line, that is a reason to raise the rate for everyone – not a reason to perpetuate unequal treatment.

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By: Andrew M. Potts /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9470 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 05:43:49 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9470 Gary Hayworth, marriage was good enough for both my non-religious parents, and good enough for a number of my closest non religious friends who’s values I share. Thousands of non-religious gay couples have married in countries overseas. Clearly marriage is something which is important to a lot of GLBT people.

If you don’t want to get married why not do what many heterosexuals who don’t believe in marriage do now and simply stay defacto and have a commitment ceremony?

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By: shayne chester /news/national-news/new-south-wales-news/equal-rights-at-last/2902#comment-9465 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 02:54:31 +0000 https://starobserver.com.au/?p=2902#comment-9465 Trevor and Danny. So you’d say that Affimative Action is misandry (prejudiced against men) or racist etc? Or that the advantages that Kooris get like Abstudy, the Aboriginal Legal Service etc etc are discriminatory? Or that the Special Assistance subsidy only available to HIV+ tenants is the same? Discrimination is the quality of finely distinguishing. Despite the fervour for “gay marriage” I do believe our relationships are different from a number of points of view. There was a good case for the relationships of same sex couples on welfare to be considered seperately to those of heterosexuals – it was even mooted in a Senate speech by the Greens at one stage. But it’s all academic now, I guess. However I do worry that many will not survive the loss of their benefits. Their only option is to try and get “unmarried,” to separate or disguise their relationships, abrogate any joint ventures or interests and be very careful who they tell their business to, including acon and BGF.

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